In article <CLsEDA....@festival.ed.ac.uk>, er...@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eric Holmes) writes: > My main complaint about Azrael is how he "grew up" so fast, >and how Jim Aparo's (always crap) art portrayed him as a blond Wayne. I >hate Aparo's art. I will always hate him for the hash job he did on the >terrific "Death in the family", a terrific story trashed by Aparo's >flat, and utterly crap art. He doesn't draw Batman but Flatman.
I realize this is TOTALLY off the subject at hand, but I have to say something about this comment. The first books I ever picked up were "Death in the Family." I grew up on Jim Aparo. Out of all the comics I read in the last few years, one of my favourite artists was Jim Aparo. He may not have a really wild imagination as, say, Norm Breyfogle, but he always places his characters at places in the panels that grab the most emotional impact. Case in point, Batman 431, the "You four men can come out now" issue. Not only is this, IMO, the definitive Batman story, but also the definitive way Batman should be drawn. What he lacks in different facial designs for certain people, he makes up for in intensity. The Death of Robin. The Breaking of the Batman. I cried when I saw those panels.
Just reacting to your attack on Jim Aparo -- it wasn't always thus. His 70's work on Batman in Detective is adequate, and in mid-70's Brave and Bold work is rich and detailed, it a pity about his frozen faces, but these represent to me one of the classic faces of Batman. By no means the best, but classic. You want to see terrible Batman, I reckon Infantino is as bad as it gets, and you can spot it a mile off like Aparo's.
Back on subject - having just read Previews, I rather like the prospect of the upcoming Knightsend story line. I'm very much looking forward to Bruce's preparations for a clash. After 800 or so Batman and related comics, the thought of dropping Batman and Detective was starting to get me down. For me, this has been the best Batman week since Bruce's back was broken.
Following on from the subject of Gorden knowing Bat's identity, does anyone have a full list of everyone who's learned Bruce is Batman (pre and Post crisis), (alive and deceased?)
In article <CLsEDA....@festival.ed.ac.uk>, er...@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eric Holmes) writes:
|> I have to agree - How many panels did he appear in with the costume |> anyway!?!? My main complaint about Azrael is how he "grew up" so fast, |> and how Jim Aparo's (always crap) art portrayed him as a blond Wayne. I |> hate Aparo's art. I will always hate him for the hash job he did on the |> terrific "Death in the family", a terrific story trashed by Aparo's |> flat, and utterly crap art. He doesn't draw Batman but Flatman.
In article <2kj6rl$...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, ma...@wam.umd.edu (Mean Mister Mustard) writes...
>In article <CLqFq7....@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, >Bob <chas...@sage.cc.purdue.edu> wrote: >>Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will) but what about >> Batman vs. Predator?
>>bob
>I wouldn't know, since I never read it. Would you recommend it?
>marc
Yes, and he DID wear heavy, outside-the-costume armor, and YES he did win, IMHO, because he was wearing it.
-Squealy
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo
In <CLsqGF....@csc.ti.com> a130149@crazy (John Hall (0032 jvh )) writes:
>Just reacting to your attack on Jim Aparo -- it wasn't always thus. >His 70's work on Batman in Detective is adequate, and in mid-70's >Brave and Bold work is rich and detailed, it a pity about his frozen >faces, but these represent to me one of the classic faces of Batman. >By no means the best, but classic. You want to see terrible Batman, >I reckon Infantino is as bad as it gets, and you can spot it a mile off >like Aparo's.
Jim's mid-70 to early 80's stuff is terrific even to today's standards. Some of my fondest memories of batman are by Jim Aparo. But I think Jim has lost the touch, and his recent work is just plain flat. Jim isn't as young as he use to be, and it shows. I'm not sure if there is a retirement age for pencillers, but let's realize Jim is past his prime in the pencil work he does, and it is time to move on to something else.
In article 14...@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca, nolive...@mta.ca (Nelson Oliveira) writes:
> I realize this is TOTALLY off the subject at hand, but I have to say >something about this comment. The first books I ever picked up were "Death in >the Family." I grew up on Jim Aparo. Out of all the comics I read in the >last few years, one of my favourite artists was Jim Aparo. He may not have a >really wild imagination as, say, Norm Breyfogle, but he always places his >characters at places in the panels that grab the most emotional impact. Case >in point, Batman 431, the "You four men can come out now" issue. Not only is >this, IMO, the definitive Batman story, but also the definitive way Batman >should be drawn. What he lacks in different facial designs for certain people, >he makes up for in intensity. The Death of Robin. The Breaking of the Batman. >I cried when I saw those panels.
> Later, > Nelson
Well I grew up on Jim Aparo too. His art has become rather stilted and unimaginative lately, but he used to have a wild, exciting style. Check out The Brave and the Bold V1 ca. #110 and onwards, and Detective Comics just after Archie Goodwin took over as editor (#327? Can't remember...) That was some of the greatest art of that era. (And I'm not old, dammit!)
|> In <CLsqGF....@csc.ti.com> a130149@crazy (John Hall(0032 jvh )) writes: |> |> >Just reacting to your attack on Jim Aparo -- it wasn't always thus. |> >His 70's work on Batman in Detective is adequate, and in mid-70's |> >Brave and Bold work is rich and detailed, it a pity about his frozen |> >faces, but these represent to me one of the classic faces of Batman. |> >By no means the best, but classic. You want to see terrible Batman, |> >I reckon Infantino is as bad as it gets, and you can spot it a mile off |> >like Aparo's.
Well, I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I love Infantino's work on Batman in the 60's. It wasn't the Dark Knight we're used to now, but it was a real change and improvement. I vividly remember the first _New Look_ story which opened up Gotham beautifully (and even has Batman holding a gun on some thugs -- a little more reality than readers are willing to endure for some reason). The story that took place in the Scottish (?) castle, the inevitable (for Infantino) ape story all are vividly impressed on my memory, though I sold the issues years ago in a reckless fit of poverty.
My votes for lackluster Batman would be most of the current stable and Irv Novick who seemed far superior in his war comics. I wish Gene Day had more time (for more reasons than this!) He brought such intelligence to his short tenure. Do others agree that the Swamp Thing Issue Number 5 qualifies Wrightson as one of the great Batman artists. Adams is the classic, I guess, and I think Aparo's best work seemed heavily Adams-influenced.
As I said, I think the quality of most of the Batman titles now is regrettable when you consider how important the title is. Much different from the Superman titles which have such consistently good art which manages to bring out a lot of individual flourish
-- Tom Owens MIT Library Systems Office ow...@mit.edu 617-253-1618 voice 617-253-8894 fax
: |> >Just reacting to your attack on Jim Aparo -- it wasn't always thus. : |> >His 70's work on Batman in Detective is adequate, and in mid-70's : |> >Brave and Bold work is rich and detailed, it a pity about his frozen : |> >faces, but these represent to me one of the classic faces of Batman. : |> >By no means the best, but classic. You want to see terrible Batman, : |> >I reckon Infantino is as bad as it gets, and you can spot it a mile off : |> >like Aparo's.
: Well, I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I love Infantino's : work on Batman in the 60's. It wasn't the Dark Knight we're used to now, but
I'll agree to disagree on this. The sameness of Infantino's heads really distracts me (so does Aparo's).
: My votes for lackluster Batman would be most of the current stable and Irv : Novick who seemed far superior in his war comics. I wish Gene Day had more : time (for more reasons than this!) He brought such intelligence to his short : I could only find 1 Day comic listed in my Batman: Detective 527 (?). I have to agree that Novick is drab, but I like the O'Neil writing in that period more than what came before or what followed . I think Ernie Chua is much drabber than Novick though, and the stories don't hold up as well.
tenure. Do others agree that the Swamp Thing Issue Number 5 qualifies Wrightson : as one of the great Batman artists. Adams is the classic, I guess, and I think : Aparo's best work seemed heavily Adams-influenced.
Yes, I like Swamp Thing 7 very much. One of my favorite longer runs was the Colan run that took place during Moench's complicated mid-80s thread. After reading that, I'd had such high hopes for Moench coming back to Batman, but there's none of the plot density. Ah well. I could really do with a long stretch of Bruce (Batman) doing some DETECTING while life goes on around him. Think we'll get that?
Oh, the other totally forgetable Batman, IMO, is the stuff that occurred in World's Finest, from about issue 200 on. What I've read of it. Lethal boring plots, too.
In article <CM18HL....@csc.ti.com>, a130149@crazy (John Hall 0032 jvh )) writes: |> I'll agree to disagree on this. The sameness of Infantino's heads really distracts |> me (so does Aparo's). |>
You found this to be true even in his 60's work? I agree that his work in the 80's was not up to his work in the 60s.
|> Yes, I like Swamp Thing 7 very much. One of my favorite longer runs was the Colan |> run that took place during Moench's complicated mid-80s thread. After reading that, |> I'd had such high hopes for Moench coming back to Batman, but there's none of |> the plot density. Ah well. I could really do with a long stretch of Bruce (Batman) |> doing some DETECTING while life goes on around him. Think we'll get that?
I don't think so. One of the things I miss in modern comics is the _small_ story. Every menace has to be earth-shaking, every event cataclysmic, every plot device as overstated as this sentence. I'd really like to see a common, garden variety mystery with some real detective work and a common crook.
One of my favorite Golden Age covers was a picture of Superman getting his hair cut. This was back when Supes hair couldn't be cut. The barber was exasperated and Supes seemed either bemused or unaware of the barber's difficulties. It had nothing to do with the stories inside. It was just an amusing, quiet cover. I wish we had some of that today.
Sorry about forgetting which Swamp Thing Batman was in; I'm sure it was 7 now that you point it out.
-- Tom Owens MIT Library Systems Office ow...@mit.edu 617-253-1618 voice 617-253-8894 fax
: In article <CM18HL....@csc.ti.com>, a130149@crazy (John Hall 0032 jvh )) writes: : |> I'll agree to disagree on this. The sameness of Infantino's heads really distracts : |> me (so does Aparo's). : |> : You found this to be true even in his 60's work? I agree that his work in the : 80's was not up to his work in the 60s. I had a check, and yep, most of the Batman Infantino I have is 60s, reprinted in 70s detectives and Batmans. I could find very little 80s Infantino Batnam in my x-reference.
: I don't think so. One of the things I miss in modern comics is the _small_ story. : Every menace has to be earth-shaking, every event cataclysmic, every plot device : as overstated as this sentence. I'd really like to see a common, garden variety : mystery with some real detective work and a common crook.
: and Supes seemed either bemused or unaware of the barber's difficulties. It had : nothing to do with the stories inside. It was just an amusing, quiet cover. I : wish we had some of that today.
I absolutely agree. More of Batman and Superman scheming together to make a fool of Lois. :-)
I also liked the second stories in many of the 70s issues: Unsolved Cases, Just a minute mysteries, James Gordon feature stories, Tales of Gotham City (not the three part dud but the short story featuring in the dollar Detective comics), even some of the Robin stories and Catwoman second features. Couldn't get into the Batgirl stories though.
And I just have to mention two of my favorite later Batman stories: Batman 383 Just as night follows day - Bruce tries to get some sleep; and Detective 567 The Night of Thanks But No Thanks - classic one-off story of non-violence - WITH a Green Arrow story for those who cared.
>In article <CM18HL....@csc.ti.com>, a130149@crazy (John Hall 0032 jvh )) writes: >|>One of my favorite longer runs was the Colan run that took place >|>during Moench's complicated mid-80s thread. After reading that, I'd had >|>such high hopes for Moench coming back to Batman, but there's none of the plot >|>density. Ah well. I could really do with a long stretch of Bruce (Batman) >|> doing some DETECTING while life goes on around him. Think we'll get that?
I agree! The issues in those years held the best *sustained* quality I've ever seen in Batman stories and art. Moench spun out and fulfilled long plot threads. Supporting cast members would gain new dimension as Moench revealed new aspects of them that were unexpected but made sense! Harvey Bullock went from being a one-dimensional foil for Batman (sort of the Anti-Gordon on the police force) to being a well developed character with a distinct heroic attitude.
Moench paced his storytelling well, mixing in some fine little resolved-in-one-issue stories with longer threads that made real changes in Bruce and other characters, one experience at a time.
Bruce and Selina were well on their way to resolving sharing *every* side of their lives, and Moench made that believable. There was a delightful issue of a double date they had with Green Arrow and Black Canary. Too bad a change of editors nipped those developments and restored the status quo by having Catwoman brainwashed to be a criminal again. Feh!
There were several great issues where many facinating story threads unfolded while Batman sat alone on a rooftop slowly moving pebbles from one pile to another until his mind straightened out enough to return to action.
Hmmmmnnnn... I wonder if that sequence inspired David Sim's handling of his title character during the Melmoth arc in "Cerebus"?
--James Langdell jam...@eng.sun.com Sun Microsystems Mountain View, Calif.
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